Should Tiki Central be stripped of any hawaiiana discussions?

bigbro, I was not really speaking OF anyone in particular although probably speaking OFF the cuff, so to speak, but you're correct, I completely misunderstand how to use spellcheck, I'll try to be more petty... :)

One day, there will be a cure for tiki,
That's the day I'll throw my rum away...

[ Edited by: KuKu 2009-01-26 18:33 ]

On 2009-01-26 16:24, chiwito wrote:

Actually, "leaky Tiki" came from a Jimmy Buffett lyric, which seemed appropriate to this thread.

chiwito

Ah! I am ignorant of Jimmy Buffet insider knowledge, I must confess. I would ask you WHAT that wordplay meant then, but I won't, because I think we both can agree that it was a case of what I myself was guilty of earlier, as just mentioned above:

On 2009-01-26 16:15, bigbrotiki wrote:
...But that kind of insider sarcasm is more often than not completely lost on internet posts, so one should refrain from it all together.

Jeez, folks, the posts are flying, I can't keep up, and I am sure nobody else can --or CARES to, I had enough fun for the day. I would even say for the week, or longer, in the case of this thread. See you in Collecting Tiki, or elsewhere.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2009-01-26 16:44 ]

Still curious about Tiki Magazine and whether or not it is line with the standards of Tiki Central? Since I have only read/own one copy of Tiki News, does Tiki Magazine follow the same feel/impression for all things tiki or is this a "fast forward" to the collector/culture of today?

PTD

Sorry PTD, you got me back, once more, I do not want to ignore an enthusiastic and honestly interested TC- poster like you.

I would think Tiki Magazine is a good equivalent of the variety of subjects posted about here on TC. And just like here, there are subjects in Tiki Magazine that I love, and others that do not move me as much. You cannot really compare Tiki News and Tiki Mag because the times and the format are so different.

Tiki News came out when there was, percentage wise, not as much to report on Tiki revival artists and happenings, there were only so few around (which did change as the Tiki revival slowly grew!). So it was heavier on findings of vintage Tiki examples, and surviving Tiki places than Tiki Mag. That is actually the part that I miss most in Tiki Magazine (unlike on TC, thanks to some valiant posters like DC )

But Tiki Magazine has to be contemporary in its coverage to attract a wide enough audience, I believe, and not look like a collectors' fanzine. Tiki News could allow itself to be a more insider, we-don't-care-what's-popular underground fanzine, while Tiki Magazine has to be more "Over-ground" --or, as us sub-culture types would have called it, "commercial". I think Nick has done a great job at that, and so, many good people have graced Tiki Mag's pages, grateful there is an outlet for their efforts, and in turn many folks have found their interests met by the articles and images.

So I think you're right, Tiki Magazine is definitely a "Fast Forward" to the 21st Century Tiki Revival esthetic, and less representative of mid-century Tiki style...

But please, with that, let's not start a whole new subject on this poor beleaguered thread, the Tiki News/Tiki Magazine/ Tiki Central comparisons should be their own thread --if anybody really cares to discuss it, that is. But let THIS thread rest now, yah?

Oh No, No, No! BigBro,
Please let this go on and on. This is the most fun I have seen here in a long time! We are learning so much about some of the folks here. Some may actually be closet JB fans (heaven forbid!). And doesn't anyone find it strange that that so often Tiki is defined as what it "IS NOT" rather than what "IT IS"? Of course, we must ultimately bow to BigBro's definition because he wrote the "Book" or two books or one book with two different names.
Oh well, keep having fun (if fun is TIKI).

ORIGINALITY-FAIL!

Parrots = Tiki?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

My favorite new Hawaiiana bumper sticker - "Not Tiki?"...

Ok I'll admit it I listen to Jimmy.

As a SCUBA Instructor of 20 years at first I didn't care for him to much but over time like a mold or fungus he grew on me to the point of where I can now play 20 of his songs on my Ukulele...

Please don't "bar" me from Tiki Central for admiting this!!!

I have come to understand that he is not "Tiki" for the Education I am receiving from Bigbrotiki is sinking in, but.... is he not part of the "Tiki Revival"???

I submit as evidince,

as you look at the pictures you can see several tiki's on stage,
http://www.pubclub.com/specialevents/buffett04anaheim.htm

tiki on the cd cover
http://www.amazon.com/Live-Hawaii-Bonus-Jimmy-Buffett/dp/B0007NFLMW

and the Lyric's to the "Tiki Bar is Open"
http://mog.com/music/Jimmy_Buffett/Minimatinee_%25231/The_Tiki_Bar_Is_Open/lyrics

Sorry I couldn't resist and I hate the drunk frat boy's singing "Why Don't We Get Drunk" as much as the next person!!!!!

On 2009-01-27 09:54, Beach Bum Scott wrote:
...

I have come to understand that he is not "Tiki" for the Education I am receiving from Bigbrotiki is sinking in, but.... is he not part of the "Tiki Revival"???
...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=219&forum=6

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=6768&forum=6

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-10-27 11:23 ]

I asked about it earlier, but no one picked up on it.

I've been a parrothead for 20+ years. I would never class Jimmy Buffett as 'tiki'. Having said that, I disagree with BBT (or maybe just misunderstand) as to Buffett's role in the Tiki Devolution. Margaritaville may have been a hit, but I don't think the whole beach bum trend really came until the early '80s. I do think that Vietnam played the biggest role. Another poster mentioned the idea of dressing up to go out, and the beach bum look then becoming popular. I don't blame that on Margaritaville.....I blame the hippies. Society has changed. People used to dress for travel. Now you wear comfortable clothes and slip-on shoes. I think too much credit is laid on Buffett's lap.

However.....I think he could reasonably be considered part of tiki revival. He certainly brings some tiki elements into his shows and music.

On 2009-01-24 15:43, bigbrotiki wrote:
So the identifying factor for TIKI STYLE is, what a surprise, that is contains depictions of Tikis.

His music and lifestyle may not (don't)fit with classic Poly-pop/tiki, but it could serve as a gateway drug. (did for me) You're dealing with a large population of adults with disposable incomes looking for a tropical getaway. Might be more of us out there than you know, looking to expand our horizons.

For the record, a WHOLE bunch of us that have been fans for years hate the same things you do about the parrothead lifestyle. Drunken fratboys were a large part of the reason I stopped going to concerts.

SO WOULD KENNY CHESNEY BE CONSIDERED TIKI then?
hope not.....he's awful!

On 2009-01-27 10:50, little lost tiki wrote:
SO WOULD KENNY CHESNEY BE CONSIDERED TIKI then?
hope not.....he's awful!

Yes... truly awful.

"Tiki bar" at Kenny Chesney show:

Well, at least Cruzan is better than Bacardi but still...

Bored, bored, bored, can we lock this topic up now?

I vote Lock it!

Can I ask why? There are no politics, no insults, no name calling, nothing...no reason to lock the free exchange of ideas, except that thin skins can't take it.

How about just don't open the thread if you are so scared or offended about it. Jeez louise! We have threads about mugs and chops that go 80 pages, and no one is calling for them to be locked.

I enjoy reading these posts, especially the ones by Sven.

On 2009-01-27 12:03, lucas vigor wrote:
Can I ask why? There are no politics, no insults, no name calling, nothing...no reason to lock the free exchange of ideas, except that thin skins can't take it.

How about just don't open the thread if you are so scared or offended about it. Jeez louise! We have threads about mugs and chops that go 80 pages, and no one is calling for them to be locked.

I enjoy reading these posts, especially the ones by Sven.

The main topic of this thread has drasticlly changed from is Hawaiian tiki to some junk about Jimmy Buffett. Threads that go 80 pages long can keep on target of the topic. If it should not be locked, then it should be moved to Beyond Tiki/Bilge.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-10-27 11:24 ]

"The main topic of this thread has drastically changed from is Hawaiian tiki to some junk about Jimmy Buffett. Threads that go 80 pages long can keep on target of the topic. If it should not be locked, then it should be moved to Beyond Tiki/Bilge." -thefuzz-

Yeah, I used to sorta think like that too. But these days to make the screaming in my head stop (or at least quiet it down a bit) I regard the main forum as being the place where people just post whatever they want. The specialized forums are for those who wish to make Tiki Central a useful resource for people interested in particular topics. (Or, in the case of Bilge, just want to have fun.)

Because a thread has become repetitious or ridiculous isn't really a good reason to lock a topic. If it were many threads would be locked after the very first post.

PS: Speaking of veering off topic, I used to hate Kenny Chesney too. But now I like quite a bit of his music...Taken in its context of big brand country pop. I don't think this means his music is all that good, it just proves that alcohol kills brain cells and enough of mine are gone to enjoy Beer in Mexico. But still, he's no George Strait.

[ Edited by: woofmutt 2009-01-27 12:27 ]

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-10-27 11:21 ]

That's your opinion. I think it is all highly relevent to the topic. A lot of people here have different opinions about what tiki is. I like to hear them. Or we could just go on talking about mugs, which I am only marginally interested in.

Fine, what about discussing the tikiness of souvenir Hawaiian coconut monkeys?...or is palm tree images tiki?...or something that would be on par with the topic of this thread. At least it would be on topic and not about JB. The headline of this thread is not "What is Tiki To You?". Its a discussion about the connection between Hawaii and Tiki. I think Starting a new thread would be best if you want to talk about What is Tiki To You?

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-10-27 11:22 ]

So you are a parrot-head? That explains why you want it locked.

Name calling now? Sweet!

I just think a new thread needs to be started for further discussion on the topic(s) that want to be discussed under this thread.

So just finish your pina-colada and calm down.

[ Edited by: thefuzz 2009-01-27 12:48 ]

And so far the score is:
Pre Tiki=Not Tiki.
Tiki (as defined by Sven in BOT).
Tiki Style (product of tiki as defined by Sven & proved via Trader Vic's & Don the Beachcomber menu covers).
Tiki Culture (things within the tiki culture are not always defined by tiki style).
Polynesian Pop ( morphing mutations of tiki style & tiki culture).
Devo Tiki
Jimmy Buffett
So if this thread is locked, will there be a winner? Or a wiener? Or a whiner? Prizes...?

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-10-27 11:22 ]

It seems to me that if the thread is locked it will just start up again in another thread...

Now to put it back on topic...

If you go to a Jimmy show in Hawaii and buy a t-shirt that has a tiki on it is it "Tiki Revival" or "Hawaiiana"? And should it be posted/discused under "Tiki Finds"?

It seems some folks just take life to seriously.

I vote ignore it, don't lock it.

When these same questions come up ad nauseum, I think it's great when someone just replies with links to previous similar or identical threads. The problem is that although that would be the rational end, it frequently is not. I think this is because the general subject area is bait for what many members (not just Sven) consider the core thrust of TC.

Let's be clear, the following are not clever new insights. These have all appeared over and over, from different people...

• Take some comment from somewhere on TC, and melodramatically exaggerate it into some point that is obviously a strawman with no real relationship to any position held by anyone. Then either add it to one of the usual threads, or even pose it as a question in a new topic.

• Remark in some snippy way about Sven being too opinionated by virtue of his authorship.

• After getting ruffled feathers, post something to indicate standing up to THE MAN! There are endless examples of this... "I don't care what you all say, I'm going to decorate my home how I want to, not how you tell me too!" Or "I thought tiki was about fun and freedom from rules!" Or "Well I think I'll go somewhere else if this site is just a bunch of tiki police!" (substitute other terms like "hoity toities" for tiki police). Or "I'm tired of people telling me what I should like." Or "Tiki has to grow and expand its boundaries" - one of my favorites for its sheer meaninglessness. Or from this thread, "Polynesian antiquities are far more fascinating / I don't really care for the tiki pop culture."

Ultimately, I don't understand the point of these. Will Sven and others who actually enjoy "Celebrating classic and modern Polynesian Pop" suddenly be swayed by these enlightening comments? No. So is it knowingly tilting at windmills, or just some kind of weird venting, or ...?

Echoing MadDogMike - Sven commented very concisely about the purpose of elaborating on a concept of tiki for the purposes of discussions here on TC, "And if that distinction is not important to you, fine, have a ball, just don't get offended if I say it's not Tiki --remember, you don't care."

Sven, I salute you for your perseverance. Sabu, I thought you had stated it well too, as did some others. Beyond that, there's very little sign that these counterpoints are actually leading anywhere. But that's no reason to lock it!

-Randy

you can't just have a Tiki in a bar and call it a Tiki bar

You need tapa,bamboo,fishfloats,colored/moody lighting/mugs,etc...

no Tiki is an island!

the advantage of Tiki
is that it's many things to many people
ranging from heavily purist to loosey goosey...

i think alcohol is the common ingredient
which would account for both ends of the above spectrum
and the cliques in between!

except Kenny Chesney....

:)

On 2009-01-27 13:55, little lost tiki wrote:
you can't just have a Tiki in a bar and call it a Tiki bar

You need tapa,bamboo,fishfloats,colored/moody lighting/mugs,etc...

no Tiki is an island!

the advantage of Tiki
is that it's many things to many people
ranging from heavily purist to loosey goosey...

i think alcohol is the common ingredient
which would account for both ends of the above spectrum
and the cliques in between!

except Kenny Chesney....

:)

Being heavily goosey, I'll drink to that...

On 2009-01-27 12:50, KuKu wrote:
So if this thread is locked, will there be a winner? Or a wiener? Or a whiner? Prizes...?

If this thread gets locked, the terrorists win. :lol:

Thanks Randy. The only reason to lock this thread I see would be the (intentionally written so or not) incendiary, negativity provoking title of it, which will always attract folks that want to think they are being censored. Add the repeated postings of Cammo's inconsistent, erratic lists mainly intended as provocation, and you have a volatile mixture for the "don't think-just react" posting crowd. So Tiki newbies will flock to this thread like moths to the flame to "give their 2 cent" (NOT a specific, but entirely generic quote!) ....which is slightly overvaluing some of these posts. :)

All this despite the fact that, in my very first post, (which also was the first reply to the initial question), I said THIS right off the bat, in the first two sentences:

" ...the way you pose the question sounds way to extreme. There is no ban, dogma or censorship here, just a FOCUS. Hawaiiana and Hawaii have a link to, and were in many ways the inspiration for Tiki style."

...and after that, mayhem ensued.

I think it is a question of terminology, or semantics, as Sabu noted. Like Ken said, Tiki is many things to many people:

To ME it is an ART FORM. That is how I defined it, and that is what I talk about here on TC. And my works that HAVE defined it have made it popular again.
To come to the art historian that defined the style of Art Deco and say "Art Nouveau is the same than Art Deco" one would have to have a reeeally good argument...the like of which I have not seen here, so far.

To many OTHER FOLKS, here and out there, Tiki is a LIFE STYLE. It incorporates all sorts of Island fun stuff, like drink umbrellas and parrots and coconut monkeys and Aloha shirts and so on. Now since a couple of years, the term "Tiki" has become the buzzword of the sellers of these type of wares (including music), and people are buying it. So if the fun seekers are being told that not all they thought is actual "Tiki style", they feel like some party pooper wants to take their toys away. Nothing is farther from my mind. Many of these things are part and parcel of Tiki style --which is different than BEING Tiki style.

I also think it is a question of personality, of some folks here being irked by claims of expertise and specialist authority. That just rubs some guys wrong. I am sorry, I cannot UNDO having written two thick books, numerous articles and essays, and over 5000 posts on the subject --should I deny it? If I cannot state what defines Tiki, WHO can (anyone of those under 100 posts newbies, perhaps?). If you feel these last sentences are not just stating fact, but are self- aggrandizing --read this paragraph from the beginning, please.

Here's a copy of the flyer that announced my first lecture on Tiki in 1992 --when nobody knew what it meant. That was even two years before Otto and I started Tiki News:

I had no idea how much my ironically dramatizing phrasing of "a controversial theory" would become fact in the future! :D

And about that Jimmy Buffet T-shirt question, this was one of the designs, no?:

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-10-27 11:23 ]

Someone had the foresight to think forward when designing and creating these...

I guess they knew this day was coming?

Sven,

I didn't intend to post here again as well. Thanks for your insight to my question and I think I understand where you are coming from with the differences. Who knew the culture would grow so large? Things evolve and change, so it is important to remember the basis from which something grows. Fundamentally, I think that is what the difference is here.

I agreed with you in another post in another thread that because of the lack of tiki, maybe the post should be moved to "Beyond Tiki". Not because I didn't think it wasn't important enough to post in it, because I have and will continue to, but because of the simple fact the majority of what was being posted did not include tiki, but had traces and roots to it. So to me, it is important to continue to post these finds, but in the appropriate place. No worries, because there is a forum for it and if enough people are interested, they will find it.

Again, thank you for taking the time. In fact, thank all of you for taking the time to share, I have learned quite a lot here.

Maybe Hanford could consider starting another area for Hawaiiana?

PTD

[ Edited by: Psycho Tiki D 2009-01-27 16:44 ]

LOL I didn't even know that type t-shirt existed, I was just kind of thinking out loud and trying to have a little fun on a boring day at work.

Once again thanks bigbrotiki!!!!

You know growing up in SoCal during the 60's with the parents having backyard "Tiki style" parties, then myself always having a mug or 2 for the rum drinks while wearing a Aloha shirt, I never gave much thought to "Tiki" as an art form, I just always thought of it as part of the "Beach Culture".
Then I stumbled on this site a few months ago and WOW....
Have I learned alot in a short time.

[ Edited by: Beach Bum Scott 2009-01-28 14:23 ]

On 2009-01-27 13:55, little lost tiki wrote:

no Tiki is an island!

What's wrong with islands? :)

I may just be the first person to introduce Tiki to an Island for the first time in recent history!!

P.s... this thread should not be locked... it should be DELETED.

On 2009-01-28 01:07, Tiki Trav wrote:
P.s... this thread should not be locked... it should be DELETED.

No, No...everyone's entitled to an opinion and the natives ain't a swearin' & name a callin' yet. Some very good points have been by all as well by Sven, Lucas and others. I do however feel Sabu summed it up quite nice and clearly on page 7. These are opinions as well as facts, ignorance vs. versed, intelligence, whatever, however. There are now 2 books that I know of that are more scruinased than any other books in history to me so hey Sven, your in the best of company :D Thinking outside the box should be welcomed it's what got us here to TC began with regardless of right or wrong or just being opinionated. So glad we all have thoughts and opinions and a forum in which to discuss them, it makes life interesting and the world go round.

P.S. Quote from the mission statement just in case you weren't going to bother to read...again, "If you’d like to know more about the kind of Tiki that Tiki Central focuses on, and what we don't, we recommend the following:

The Book of Tiki (book) "

On 2009-01-25 00:55, hanford_lemoore wrote:
Should Tiki Central be stripped of any Hawaiiana discussions?

No, it shouldn't. It has a place here.

If I want to talk about Don Ho in the same breath as Tiki Farm, the Mai Kai, and Tiki Bob would the purists like Big Bro prefer I go to another site?

No, that seems like a fair discussion to have here.

The important thing is to discuss Hawaiiana in proper context, from a point of understanding of how it links in with Tiki, rather than from the angle of indifference, or ignorance. Look closely and you'll find all sorts of talk of Hawaiiana from the strict interpetationists on this site.

And the reason I added our Mission Statement to the site was to make not about one person's personal taste against another. The mission statement is pretty clear about what we're focused on. I consider any questions you have about what may or may not fall under that mission statement to be "blurry-edge" content.

"that's all"

[ Edited by: Hiphipahula 2009-01-28 14:46 ]

Actually, "leaky Tiki" came from a Jimmy Buffett lyric, which seemed appropriate to this thread.

Having accidentally contributed to the devolution of this thread from "Hawaiiana = Tiki?" to yet another incarnation of "Buffett = Tiki?" or "Buffett = death of Tiki?" or "Buffett = end of life worth living?", I want to confest my utter baffleation at the persistent role a practicioner of Caribbean pop has in discussions of Polynesian pop.

I assume that if we had a thread titled "Should Tiki Central be stripped of any Caribbeana discussions?" there might be some discussion of censorship vs. pointing out what is not Tiki vs. let a hundred flowers bloom value systems, but that all participants would generally agree that reggae and calypso and Cuban cigars and Jamaican reefers and rasta and steel drums and santaria and gulf coast blues and zydeco and manatees and the Conch Republic are pretty thoroughly not Tiki. How then is a singer/songwriter who claims his initial musical inspiration from New Orleans, who became famous in and from the Key West zeitgeist, and who is most closely identified with the islands of the eastern Carib, any more relevant to Hawaii and Polynesia, or to mainland manifestations of those territories? Admittedly, the two regions have important lifestyle elements in common: they are all about the ocean, islands and seacoasts; they embody tropical climate and attitude, at least in comparison to most of the places where their pop culture representations flourish; mst importantly, the pop cultures based on each region are thoroughly rum-soaked. Taht's about it, though, for two aras so far separated geographically that neither they nor their pop manifestations were much influence on each other.

If one were to take all of the threads mentioning Mr. Buffett and substitute for his name "Don Ho" or even "Cecilio and Kapono" I could follow most of the arguments, whether about the Hawaiiana/Tiki links, in threads like this, or about the role of Hawaiian music pop stars in either the growth and popularization of Hawaiiana or the devolution of both Hawaiiana and exotica. Conversely, if we were on an equivalent website devoted either to Caribbean culture [CaribCentral.com] or the pop manifestations of that culture on the mainland [MamboCentral.com], then critic and supporters of JB would have a place to debate his role in the devolution and end of the Calypso Era. They could also debate which manifestations of CaribPop are from the islands and which are part of a purely mainland culture -- BigBroSka would be the resident expert.

chiwito

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-10-27 11:21 ]

Amen!!!
Buffet has no real connection to Caribbean music or culture. It is seen by us locals as tourist junk, that drunks dance to, for the locals entertainment. Now if you want real Caribbean lifestyle music, Barefootman is the real thing.

Deleted for full derailment.

[ Edited by: Mr. NoNaMe 2009-01-30 06:37 ]

Hey, did anyone notice that Sven's book had pretty pictures too? :wink:

YEE, HAW, it's a Tiki Philistines vs. Tiki Prigs tag-team cage match!

IN CLOSING... (as in "letting this rotting pig's head thread die it's well deserved death"), I just want to point out that I never meant to insinuate that Mr. Buffet was either singularly or knowingly engaged in the devolution of Tiki culture by diluting and shifting the public's need for tropical island escapsim from Tiki and Polynesia to a generic Margaritaville. The public did that, and many other contributing factors, like:

The fact that Tiki bar mixologists began to dilute the original recipes so the Polynesian cocktail got the "sweet and sticky" rep, so that the Margarita took over from the Mai Tai in the public's favor (remember, Polynesian restaurants were BUILT on cocktails!). AND television's "Fantasy Island". And The Love Boat. And fern bars. And Vietnam's palm huts on fire. And the Beatles, with the resulting music revolution and and the Sex, Drugs and Rock'n'Roll youth culture they were the beginning of.

Thank you,
Dr. Kirsten

P.S.: I like the word creation "baffleation".

"IN CLOSING..."

"You've said that so many times it's lost all meaning." Homer Simpson

:)