Would you prefer Tiki as 'mainstream' or 'underground'?

You guys really sucked me in. I was planning on working but I couldn't stop reading all of the posts in this topic. Sorry in advance for my long post!

I think I see the problem and the solution. The problem is considering tiki a scene that can go from underground to mainstream and then die. The solution is to see tiki as a culture that has expanded to include other things.

Take Asian culture as an example. Asian food, art, music, films, and dishware can be created and enjoyed by anyone, including non-Asians. There are cool retro Asian things, fancy restaurants, and artifacts. But you can find eggrolls at the shopping mall food court, along with chopsticks at target, asian cartoons on the Cartoon Network, and geisha outfits at the party store. When Madonna started dressing like a Geisha, and everyone was yapping about Feng Sui decorating, I didn't lay down and cry that I would never eat fried rice again.

With scenes you can say, I'm Gothic, I'm Punk, I'm a Raver, I'm a Stoner, I'm a Headbanger. Unless you actually are Polynesian, I think with tiki you just say I like tiki stuff. Anyone that likes the tropical vacation feel and scenery, a certain type of retro collectables and images, along with island drinks and food can be into tiki. People can gather in the name of tiki, listen to tiki, dress tiki, collect tiki as the wave of interest becomes scene-like. But in the end, when the tide goes back out it falls back into the culture category plus a little extra twist from retro America.

Not only did I buy the Target Tiki mugs, I have them displayed prominently in my backporch tikibar. Why? Because unlike my other tiki mugs, I can drink out of these and wash them without sweating with worry about breaking them. I can even let drunk guests drink out of them without threatening to kill them. And most of all, I get a weird sense of amusement when serious tiki elitists see them and wince. But cheap tiki stuff has been in the stores ever since I can remember. I don't think it is a matter of someone trying to cash in on current interest. I think it is more of a matter of cashing in on tropical vacation themed parties.

Along with Target, Ebay is also mentioned in a condescending tone. I've been creating and selling Tiki Pop Art and selling it on Ebay for years. I did it before I was even aware of Tike Central, and because of it nice people from TC invited me to fun events and let me know about TC. But I have probably been accused by some of trying to cash in. Believe me, Ebay keeps most of the money, and after material costs and time I wouldn't say that Tiki related sales keep me alive. But I do pop art of anything from any culture that I like. Why? Because I like it!

As for mainstream:

1. I would like an all Tiki Radio station (but I would like the DJs to be serious about the quality).

2. I would like a Tiki Channel that plays not only retro shows, but new variety shows, and cool tiki music videos, and cartoons for intelligent people).

3. I would like more bars to have tiki drinks made with real fruit juices, freshly squeezed, with chunky garnishes. If I order a drink that has coconut milk, I want to see someone hacking that shell open for the goodness inside.

4. I want a bigger selection of affordable and expensive collectables. That way I can pick and choose, save or use.

5. I want Tiki bars on a grand scale, with 50 foot statues, flaming torches, live bands, and a mass of people to watch and have a good time with.

But the problem with mainstream is not with quantity or quality. The problem with mainstream is intelligence. The majority of people on earth are dumb and annoying (not you or me, of course). We want to enjoy ourselves in tiki culture without morons in our faces ruining it. Imagine if 100,000 people, that qualified by your own personal standards as cool, gathered together for a tiki event like a bunch of hippies. Imagine that they are all selling something cool that they made, and affordable enough for you to buy. You would have the time of your life, pick out a momento to take home, and pat yourself on the back for going. It is only when a bunch of mindless, possibly souless idiots show up that it gets ruined. I'm not talking about innocent retards, they can't help it. I'm talking about dumb jerks. But if you get too serious about it you can ruin it too, by being a tiki facist that decides what goes and what doesn't. Sometimes it seems like "Lord of the Flies" in here. It is as laughable as a white rapper.

So you see, mainstream provides more opportunities. Then you just choose from the best. Anything else can be disposable or avoided. Taco Bell doesn't ruin Mexican culture. Calm down and have fun! Open your kitchen cabinet and look at all those plain and ugly drinking glasses you have. Everyone of them could have been replaced by big and small tiki mugs from target. If you were too stuck up to buy some you missed out. If you have plenty of $30 tiki mugs that you are reluctant to use, you missed out. Here in Chicago they went on clearance because they were not part of the dreaded mainstream. I could understand if they were plastic, but they were not plastic! I hope Martha Stuart makes a whole line of them when she gets out of jail, along with drink recipes. I hope they are cooler than anything retro or limited edition, and I hope they are $2. Then I can get drunk, rowdy, smash them on the floor and yell "ooompa!"

EsQui
http://www.waitingchairgallery.com

[ Edited by: EsQui on 2005-02-09 17:04 ]

Well spoken EsQui...great to hear from you
again. I want to see Don tiki, Ape, Haole
Kats, King Kukulele and the Mensters
up for a Grammy!

ooops

[ Edited by: congatiki on 2005-02-09 17:50 ]

Esqui, Way to bring it!

Very well said EsQui, though I'm not so down on what you term 'Tiki fascists'. These are people I know I can talk with and really enjoy a cocktail with. They are opinionated and they LOVE Tiki.

With perhaps the exception of a few of the guiding lights of Tikiworld, nobody can decree what's acceptable or not, but anyone can have an opinion. It's not Tiki diktat.

Trader Woody

• though I'm not so down on what you term 'Tiki fascists'.
  Trader Woody

What, you didn't get the latest newsletter? The, uh, "Party" was counting on you to head up the UK chapter. You know, recruitment, a little surviellance, maybe some random hooliganism (nothing too drastic). Just keeping the Tiki scene pure, free from retards and "such". Wink wink, nudge nudge.

Jeez, I got you down for two brown shirts, medium. Although, I can always get ya those in black if you'd like. I don't want to be a wanker about this, but they cost a pretty pence and with post and all. So, could ya Paypal me that money, asap? Let's not forget that the Party needs sufficent funding to, err, effectuate the goals.

Tutto nello Tiki, niente al di fuori dello Tiki, nulla contro lo Tiki!

midnite

On 2005-02-10 15:18, midnite_tiki wrote:
Jeez, I got you down for two brown shirts, medium. Although, I can always get ya those in black if you'd like.

They are the ones embroidered with Ku holding his right arm in a stiff 'Tiki salute', right? Got 'em already. Boy, do they make you feel manly.....I just hope I don't end up strung upside down from a lamp post.

Trader Woody

Stay Tiki!!

...don't forget, that the mugs and tiki items you now covet, were once cheap collectables sold in gift shops and five and dimes back in the day. whatever the equivalent of target was in the 60's you can bet they sold the stuff that today commands high prices on ebay. when tiki fades and re-emerges a generation or so from now, as all trends do, going from grass roots to full blown mainstream and ultimatly back to obscurity, your target mugs will be worth a small fortune. enjoy thr ride!!

I'd like to see it swell to tidal wave proportions then break on the rocks of time and be just underground and fragmented enough for myself and the folks I consider "serious" to have our niche for years to come.
As for the tiki nazis...I'm not a fan and if anybody said anything to me about my mix of old and new as well as my incorperating stuff that might not be traditional tiki. My comments would be less than nice...

I'd like to see it swell to tidal wave proportions then break on the rocks of time and be just underground and fragmented enough for myself and the folks I consider "serious" to have our niche for years to come.
As for the tiki nazis...I'm not a fan and if anybody said anything to me about my mix of old and new as well as my incorperating stuff that might not be traditional tiki. My comments would be less than nice...

I'm starting to love my target tiki mugs most of all. Damn, I wish I had bought more!

EsQui
http://www.waitingchairgallery.com

Tiki is like goatees, or long hair, or goatees and long hair. For awhile you and your long hair are labeled freak, and uncool. Then you grow a goatee just to spite the people who now think you're a menace because of your facial hair.

Then you begin to notice people with hair below their collars. Then they are sporting goatees. But then after about two years, the mainstream decides that the whole look is now passe.

So while the mainstreamers fall by the wayside me and my goatee and tiki mugs and such will be quite happy. And amused when the cycle repeats itself...

haha

I got a goatee too

I'm just hoping my hair doesn't fall by the wayside!

I want it to be mainstream enough to get a Trader Vics back in NYC, but not mainstream enough to be sung about by Brittany Spears or Eminem.

Or Hilary Duff.

DOH! Too late.

Hillary Duff - The Tiki Tiki Tiki Room

(available only for today - e-mail me if you missed it and want to hear it)

I dont think I have ever laughed or been so scared. My 4 year old daughter danced around and keeps asking "play dat tiki song again dad"
Thanks Tikiwahine .. I think I may never get that out of my head.

Well, this may generate some controversy, but I fear the opportunity for tiki to go mainstream has already come and gone. I used to see tiki mugs and related ephemera EVERYWHERE but now all I see everywhere is Tiki Punch. In fact, I myself sort of lost interest until, well, right now (it's amazing what two Mai Tais and a little Martin Denny can do). Then again, new tiki bars are opening up and old ones are more popular than ever before, so what the hell do I know?

I wonder about the mention of "the Tiki Nobility" and the Tiki fascists...cuz I have yet to encounter anyone like that!

Mainstream or Underground? If anyone was into blues in the early 80's might recall how crappy it got after Stevie Ray Vaughan came on the scene. Not that Stevie was crappy, it's just that the blues became watered down after Stevie became popular and he made the blues more popular. The underground is where it's at. In the words of Oscar Wilde, "Everything popular is wrong."

Then your'e not gonna like this morning's Orange County Register. Shag takes up Life..."It's A Shag, Shag, Shag World". He has arrived for the rest of the world. The "Von Dutch" debate is here.

The question is are you Tiki or not?

Is there too much Tiki?

What is Tiki?

Tiki today will never be what it was 70 years ago, oh, you can go out and buy some antique Tiki things and spend a lot of cash on building the most elaborate Tiki Room, Tiki Bar, Tiki Garden.....

70 years ago, no one knew what Tiki was, who has the right to tell others that what they call Tiki is not really Tiki at all. To me Tiki is a state of mind, and if I add some little trinket to my make believe place, then that is me.

If we do these things, build or buy a Tiki Bar, convert a room in the house, re-model a porch, re-do a garden / backyard, add things we call Tiki to them and then when the mood fits the time, add music to the area (room / garden) is it not what the composers of Mood music say they created their music for, so we can let our minds cast off the everyday day in and day out blues.....It's called relaxing....

And when Tiki Lounges were built and became popular, it was for people to gather who had a common interest...

Oh! yes....Tiki, will never be as it was before...can we keep it alive, yes...we can...

Some say it's all about the money companies are making, look where Tiki came from (as we know it) it was created out of an idea a man had to bring people together and yes, he would be able to make money....

Are Tiki Items cheesy, yes they are 30 years ago we called them tacky....but, thanks to the companies that are still making those cheesy things....

Mainstream

[ Edited by: TB Hawks 2006-03-21 02:29 ]

Underground....
I, personally wont buy "tiki" from evil empires like target or wallmart...this watered down version leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can liken the whole popular tiki thing to the tattoo craze of recent years. people are getting tribal and chinese charaters and have no clue what these symbols even mean.Anyone can buy into popular culture and purchase a von duetch hat or a tiki time clock but still have no clue.
Like many of you on here...i like what i like, and i do what I do...if its popular or not...i march to the beat of my own bongo drum.
On the other hand...Not having a place to meet other like minded people(people who love this culture) is a big bummer. With the recent demise of tiki boyds in Denver whats a girl to do? So...in the meantime i will still hunt my local thrift shops, plan my home tiki bar, and wear my cheesy hawaiian shirts!

Have the crappy tiki stuff mainstream for the masses and the good stuff for the devoted underground fans/collectors. Thats the way it is now.

I recently saw this quote, and thought it would be appropriate to tack it onto this thread, as it applies very much to tiki.

"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history, all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled, watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people you hate."

but there is another quote I also like

"Don't let the bastards grind you down"

Vern

Sometimes something becomes mainstream because it represents certain qualities that many are searching for. Does this make mainstream bad? Not necessarily. In fact, on the rare occassion it's an endorsement of how good something is. Those who foresake or avoid something, simply because it's popular, will inevitably miss out on some great experiences. The underground can only stay underground if nobody new comes into the mix. Therefore, if there's no new energy or ideas, there'll be no growth. If there's no growth, then stagnation and death are (most likely) end results.

With something as broadly encompassing as Tiki, I think there's room for all levels of representation. Many of our friends see my wife and I as overly enthusiastic about Tiki, but even they are now begining to keep an eye out for some of the more cheesy "mainstream" items. I feel that as their respective Tiki palets become more sophisticated, they'll come to realize that not all things Tiki are what everyone, including themselves, might consider "true" Tiki.

I think that the Tiki movement will continue on the path to a strong resurgance, so long as the new school continues to be admitted by the old. Really, the old school only exists because of how mainstream Tiki was before.

"Mainstream" -- that word is an obstacle for me. But I do wish tiki was pervasive, even ubiquitous, in society. If I like creating immersive environments, why wouldn't I want my whole town to have tiki elements all over it? Go to a municipal office and find that the file cabinets are made of (or at least accented with) bamboo. Go to the public library and see that the logo is of a Moai reading a book, looking all erudite. Get pulled over by a cop and find that he's wearing a fez (OK, not exactly tiki, but related...). Why not? It's like how the Flintstones lived in a world that was immersively that of a fantasy prehistoric land, and when they crossed a bridge it was really a brontosaurus's tail, and after the car had cleared the bridge the brontosaurus looked at you, the viewer, and said laconically of his job, "It's a livin'..."

I had a buddy come over last weekend who i had not seen in about 2 years and actually sat in my place and looked around at my Shag prints, tiki mugs, rattan furniture, Bosko masks, Hula lamp, Moai head tiki lights and carved tikis i was playing exotica music with the Martini Kings burlesque dvd playing in the backround on the tv and i explained the Tiki Oasis event. He sounded really jazzed on the niche and good vibed environment and it seemed to click about why it is that i surround my self in my own personal paradise. His girlfriend came over and he tried to explain to her Tiki Oasis as if to get her excited about it, but the translation had already been lost and she just kind of nodded but just shrugged it off and kind of tuned him out. There are only a select few that are actually tuned in, that know the history of events, locations, carvers, artists and characters of this little thing we call tiki. So for that being said i dont really see a mass awareness of our counter culture, for the most part people will just get a glimpse and move on, maybe not sure of what moved them about it until a later time when the spark that was lit by that exposure turns into an inferno.

Underground, where only the true believers come to worship tiki.

MrsHoptiki

If it was only underground, those in remote places would never find ANYTHING. And those like me -- I LIKE primary colors -- would be limited to the beautiful but muted "authentic" tiki. Here's what I said about it in the "Are you a tiki snob" thread, but it also applies here with respect to quantity and quality of available tiki.

"... I LIKE primary, bright colors. So my collection includes muted and simple authentic tiki as well as the garish Oriental Trading Company style tiki. I love both. As much as I love Bamboo Ben's decorating and designs, I'd get bored after a while, because the traditional look is all earth tones and shades of brown. I'd end up putting a plastic, multi-colored tiki-face trashcan in the corner or something and Ben would never speak to me again.

To see what MY ideal tiki room looks like, check out Janet's Lanai at Tiki Acres (our ranch in Lockhart, TX). (Although the best of my authentic tiki collection is in my house, leaving the more "festive" pieces, as well as my koi and mermaid opala (junk), to decorate the lanai.)"

I also agree with what EsQui said way back in 2005 -- the cheap tiki cups and mugs and crap decorate my lanai for a reason, leaving my more expensive and authentic items for the safer domain of the house.

Finally, remember, back in the day, wood and glass were cheap, and trendy junk was made out of it. But then these got more expensive, and now are considered collectible. Now plastic is cheap and trendy junk is made out of it. But one of these days petroleum-based products will become the collectibles, and the trendy junk will be made of something else. Plastic items are the antiques of the future.

So I'm not collecting "crap", I'm collecting future antiques. :D

Underground, Overground, Wombling Free,
The Wombles of Wimbledon Common are we.
Making good use of the things that we find,
Things that the everyday folks leave behind.

Uncle Bulgaria,
He can remember the days when he wasn't behind The Times,
With his map of the World.
Pick up the papers and take them to Tobermory!

Wombles are organized, work as a team.
Wombles are tidy and Wombles are clean.
Underground, Overground, wombling free,
The Wombles of Wimbledon Common are we!

People don't notice us, they never see,
Under their noses a Womble may be.
We womble by night and we womble by day,
Looking for litter to trundle away.

We're so incredibly, utterly devious
Making the most of everything.
Even bottles and tins.
Pick up the pieces and make them into something new,
Is what we do!

Jamie - that song is rubbish...

On 2008-05-02 01:21, tikiracer wrote:
Jamie - that song is rubbish...

Heretic!

I was browsing through the threads I found this one. And it's the only one I feel I can contribute to constructivley.
Anywho, this is a paradox that conflicts many designers face. When your work is underground, it stays "fresh" and "pure". Both which are relavent terms. Because, as seen now, all our tiki culture and pieces are created or collected because it's something we have a passion for. And while yes, I understand it's how some of the members of TC make a living, it's still something custom, something original. These are creations of the chisel in our hands, the ideas in our heads, and the sweat on our brow. From rock, wood, bamboo, thatch, PVC pipe, and other assortments of materials (maybe including a little alcohol) we use to make our own paradise. Should tiki hit mainstream, it will be about the lowest bidders and the highest profit. Like much of what has become kitschy through mainstream, tiki too could see this transformation.
Of course, another effect of mainstream is the takeover of what was ours and being called a "copycat" of something "they" created. To clarify, think of your favorite sitcom. Now think of that episode where the main character did somehting or worse something that wasn't accepted right away. However, later in that episode, EVERYONE is acting or wearing what they riddiculed not a commercial break ago. And as always, the main caracter, first on "the scene", is now seen as just another follower. I don't know abot any of you, but that would annoy me to no extent.
Finally, I feel it should stay within a realm of people who both respect and understand the history of tiki. Including it's roots to the oceanic and plynesian cultures from which they spawned. It's only a few steps away from "Alowhay" and "Mahaylow" and I truly would be somewhat sad to see tiki reach that mainstream low.

-LT

The problem with keeping tiki underground and exclusive, is I think what led to the decline of original tiki, or at least hastened it. How often have we heard that some vintage motel, bar or restaraunt is being leveled by the new owners because they think tiki or mid century or googie is "tacky"?.

If tiki had always been an viable art form, and more popular, perhaps it would have stuck around and we would have more extant examples?

But, on the other hand, it may have all mutated to rainforest cafe and margaritaville, and that would not be cool!

Tiki saw a huge decline in popularity, obviously...but how cool would it be (for example) if the Tahitian terrace restaraunt in Disney was still going strong? I mean, what was their reasoning behind closing it? A decline in the popularity of tiki? Or termites?

this reminds me of an argument about punk rock I had back in the 80's!
I think we are just supposed to do our thing and if others dig it then thats just fine if they dont .......cant force em and that wouldn't be cool anyway so , show the world your best and prepare for their worst! ( and unless somebody else came up with that first ,it's MINE ! lol)

On 2009-05-14 10:19, TIKIVILLE wrote:
show the world your best and prepare for their worst! ( and unless somebody else came up with that first ,it's MINE ! lol)

Was not, everyone's been saying that for years! :P

On 2006-05-20 22:20, Thomas wrote:
"Mainstream" -- that word is an obstacle for me. But I do wish tiki was pervasive, even ubiquitous, in society. If I like creating immersive environments, why wouldn't I want my whole town to have tiki elements all over it?

I'll have Tiki ubiquitous in society, even at the risk of more being flooded with bad Tiki.

I guess in the end it's not up to us, which is just some horrible paradox. And please don't see this as self glorification, but in a very broad sense, it's up to designers and buisnessmen.

Because of the cyclic nature of fashions and design, some of the objects we desire most were at one point "mainstream" (fashionable)and now they are no longer fashionable we can consider them "underground" (unfashionable).
Perhaps our question is not whether we wish Tiki to be mainstream or underground but fashionable or unfashionable, if you will lost or found.

i would prefer it to be fashionably Underground
in a Mainstream kinda way...

On 2009-05-15 23:18, The Lounge Tiki wrote:
I guess in the end it's not up to us, which is just some horrible paradox. And please don't see this as self glorification, but in a very broad sense, it's up to designers and buisnessmen.

Very good point. And here's were we are at with Tiki: The designers have embraced it, and have, often unnoticed by the businessmen that employ them, funneled it back into popular culture. But because the core of what makes Tiki so appealing is so complex and not easily put on a box, the businessmen have failed so far to market it successfully.

Screw Tiki, let's all go Goth !

Or Did I mean...Golf ?

....The clothes are just as Loud ! :D

mainstream all the way.
If something is hot you will get new bars, restaurants, drinks, music, ECT.
I think the whole tiki thing brought the old cocktails back.
And if everybody wanted exotica music then way more would come out, be made.
Sure some of it would be crappy but still some would not.
Everything is so vanilla now.
Most new places going in all look like a Starbucks.
Back in the hey day of tiki you had all kinds of Googie architecture
cool artful furniture, cars.
I could go on and on.

I'm on board for Little Lost Tiki's idea.
Mainstream version of underground.

On 2009-05-16 19:29, tikiskip wrote:
mainstream all the way.
If something is hot you will get new bars, restaurants, drinks, music, ECT.
I think the whole tiki thing brought the old cocktails back.
And if everybody wanted exotica music then way more would come out, be made.
Sure some of it would be crappy but still some would not.
Everything is so vanilla now.
Most new places going in all look like a Starbucks.
Back in the hey day of tiki you had all kinds of Googie architecture
cool artful furniture, cars.
I could go on and on.

I've always been very staid with the 'underground' stance since my youth (punk!), but I go wit this.

On 2009-05-16 12:51, tikiyaki wrote:
Screw Tiki, let's all go Goth !

Or Did I mean...Golf ?

....The clothes are just as Loud ! :D